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Post by Quainee on Sept 16, 2013 10:14:41 GMT -5
Subject speaks for itself:
What upgrades should be made a priority?
In what order should upgrades be queued?
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Post by rikkity on Sept 16, 2013 14:47:59 GMT -5
keeps:
with skeleton crew or in general: walls + worker -> doors -> waypoint -> fortify
home bl garr is a special case, it gets 4 yaks. as long as we have the population to hold all 3 of our keeps, there is no reason garr should not have 2 upgrades queued at all possible times. 4 supply lines is enough to have all 6 personnel upgrades finished by the time you start a wp.
hills, bay, and eb keep cant possibly get this much supply, and so continuously running personnel upgrades is not a priority, but should still be done when supplies are bountiful and our enemies are stupid/vanished.
worker is the only "necessary" personnel upgrade, and if you plan on doing more than a single upgrade on *anything*, order worker the first time you go over the supply threshold making him available. hes also a great way to burn supply for cheap, tho the other t1 personnel upgrade is even more useless and costs less silver.
if you plan on keeping a large group in the map, staying mobile with quick response times... you can change the upgrade order to worker + wp -> fortify and go for wps much quicker than getting doors first. paper keeps with wps are powerful, but you must stay attentive. scouts are necessary. the ability to wipe essentially any enemy force is necessary.
camps:
when trying to upgrade walled structures, buy supply double immediately upon camp capture. you can generally bet on 1 yak making it to the structure, so your upgrade isnt wasted as long as the yak starts moving when you cap the camp (ie you already control the target walled structure).
when in an enemy bl doing small group or solo roaming, you can immediately buy caravan guards upon capture. when ri wears off, the extra guards will be there to make it an extreme nuisance to anyone trying to solo recap, and a bit tougher duo recap. the 5 silver isnt really a loss to you, you get about that much just for capping the camp in the first place. however, if you know theres another 3+ man group running around camps, you shouldnt really bother.
again, if you plan on camping a certain map, the other camp upgrades are definitely worth doing. they buy you protection from smaller roaming groups running your camps.
always buy extra guards before upping their level.
towers:
always always the same: walls -> doors, with a worker any time you have the supply, and then everything else, and fortify last. every personnel upgrade besides worker isnt something you get for the guards/npcs each adds, but it IS something you get for the extra max supply the tower can hold. fortify is last because it takes so much supply relative to what a tower has, you dont really want to start it without 400+ supply available to begin with. workers burn supply fast, and yaks come slow and dont give you much.
sm:
i dont have much to say about sm. if you cant get more than 2 lines into it, you shouldnt be upping it. if you can get 3-6 lines in, its similar to home bl garr.
enemy territory:
hills/bay are basically the same as home hills/bay. enemy bl garr will be hard to hold and the ability to hold it would suggest the other servers have entirely rolled over and died, do not bother upgrading unless youre in that situation or want to burn supply (which is more common and should be inherently obvious as to what you buy).
enemy eb keeps are similar to enemy bl garr. supply lines run past their spawn. you wont get supply into their keeps unless they completely roll over. do not upgrade except in that situation or to burn supply. same goes for enemy "inner" eb towers, and enemy bl north towers.
enemy bl south towers are upped similar to any tower wed normally claim as "ours". same for the ring of towers around sm, they only have 1 supply line, but the line is VERY short and you can get a LOT of supply into them... if you can hold them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 18:16:58 GMT -5
My guide is MUCH easier to follow and I provide reasoning behind it. Camps:- If in a Borderland, then do Double Supply first! If in Eternal Battlegrounds, then do Caravan Guards first!
Why do Double Supply for Borderland? Because there are no mobs that spawn nearby to kill a dolyak, and a Sentry has a hard time killing them.
Why do Caravan Guards for Eternal Battlegrounds? Because the mobs that spawn have been upgraded to ensure a dead dolyak, unless certain circumstances are provided to ensure the best chance for a dolyak to survive the trip.
Example Circumstances:
If your server is Red during that week in Eternal Battlegrounds, then Pangloss can acquire Double Supply before Caravan Guards due to the ability to have ownership of a nearby Sentry that ensures that the dolyak will have an ~90% chance to make it all the way to the keep. The same goes for its route to Ogrewatch. However, the same cannot be said for its route to Stonemist Castle.
If your server is Green during that week in Eternal Battlegrounds, then Golanta can acquire Double Supply before Caravan Guards, on the condition that its nearby Tower of preferred designation has purchased and upgraded its "Guard Patrols," because these patrols can scout far enough away from the tower to ensure that the dolyak survives to drop off supply. - The second level of upgrades varies based on certain preferences, but overall, the general gist remains that "Raise Guard Level" should be purchased before acquiring "Guard Patrols." The reason for this is because a person has a much harder time soloing a camp with level 82 guards, than they would with additional patrols. This further enforces the chance that a camp will not be captured so easily. With "Raised Guard Level" a minimum of 2-5 (varies on Food Buffs, Rank Points, etc.) people would be necessary for capturing that camp.
Towers:
- The first upgrade that should be purchased often varies based on circumstances. If you currently have a nearby camp and can ensure delivery of supplies, then you should purchase a "Second Worker" to ensure that future upgrades can be sped up with a camp having Double Supply, to ensure that no supply delivery is wasted. However, this being the very first upgrade, it will mean the loss of 5 supply -- guaranteed.
The second upgrade should be "Oil," then followed by a "Merchant." The reason for this is to ensure siege at the gate that will not disappear and a higher capacity for supply.
By now, you can support up to 175 supply inside of the Tower. Upon achieving 120-150 supply inside the Tower, you should begin construction on "Reinforced Walls." The wait for construction ensures that the Tower will essentially "Ride a High," which means that it will remain constant supply inside the Tower, while incoming supply is constant, and walls can be upgraded, with the ability to drain the supply for player-dropped siege in case of emergencies. - The second level of upgrades starts with the construction of a "Cannon," but not until it has acquired about 150/225 supply that it can hold -- assuming constant supply income.
The next upgrade should be "Hire More Guards" to ensure that the Tower can be held off longer until players arrive to defend it. This means more Archers on the walls and an additional "Zealot" at the front gate.
The next upgrade should be "Hire Siege Merchant." The reason for this is to expand on the supply capacity that the Tower can hold. After this is done, the Tower should be able to hold a total of 375 supply. - The third level of upgrades starts with "Raise Guard Level," to ensure that it is much more difficult to overtake a Tower with a small group.
The next upgrade will be the construction of a "Mortar," but only if the Tower has about 300/500 supply inside and continuous income.
Keeps:...to be continued. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 11:52:33 GMT -5
Keeps:- The first upgrade to a keep is circumstantial at best. If you have minimal supply income or cannot ensure that it receives at least one dolyak at all times, then you should queue up "Cannons," but only if it has at least 400/500 supply inside of the keep. If you can ensure that it receives at least one dolyak at all times, then you should queue up "Double Worker." Soon followed by "Cannons" when it receives 400/550 supply.
If you chose "Cannons" first, then your next choice will be "Double Worker" for supply capacity increase and speed improvement on upgrades.
Next, you should choose "Merchant" in order to bring the supply capacity up to 650, while providing a "Home"-y feeling to the keep (people visiting means siege refreshed/built).
Lastly, you should start construction on "Reinforced Walls," but only after it has acquired at least 400/650 supply inside the keep and that it has continuous supply income. - The next level of upgrades starts with "Hire Additional Guards," to ensure that the gates and walls of the keeps are protected from outer invaders. Archers will be placed more thoroughly throughout the keep walls, while Zealots will be added to the gates.
The next upgrade should be "Hire Services," to ensure that supply capacity can be brought to 900, while providing crucial Repair and Bank vendors (Bank Vendors are only available in keeps and the castle of WvW).
The next upgrade should begin construction on "Reinforced Doors," but only when the keep has acquired 500/900 supply inside and continuous supply income can be assured.
Lastly, construction on "Mortars," should be started after the keep has acquired 500/1000 supply inside and continuous supply income is assured. - The third level of upgrades relies on extremely crucial timing and is circumstantial at best. However, I will be providing my interpretation of what should be bought first and why.
First, if the keep is kept a close eye on it, then its first upgrade of this tier should be "Raise Guard Level," because this will potentially wipe a zerg when they're in lords room or even at the very gate! If a close eye is not kept, then its first upgrade should be "Build Waypoint," but only if it has acquired at least 800/1100 supply inside the keep and continuous dolyak deliveries can be assured.
Assuming "Raise Guard Level" was purchased, then the next upgrade would be "Build Waypoint," but only if it has acquired at least 800/1250 supply inside the keep and continuous dolyak deliveries can be assured.
Assuming "Build Waypoint" was purchased, then the next upgrade should be "Raise Guard Level," to ensure keep protection without players and supply capacity increase.
After those two upgrades have completed, the supply capacity will be brought to 1550. Once the keep has acquired at least 800/1550 supply inside and constant dolyak deliveries can be assured, then begin "Fortify Keep." The reason for this is because a Fortified Keep is extremely difficult to capture with or without the defense of players. The exception to this is its "Achilles Heel." The "Achilles Heel" is the most vulnerable and weakest spot of the entire keep -- each keep has at least one.
Lastly, upon acquiring 1200/1550 supply, you can queue up "Hire Patrol." The reason to wait until 1200 supply has been acquired is due to circumstantial attacks that could be imminent. The only relevance that this upgrade has is to assist in the destruction of siege equipment set down by enemy players, while buying more time in defense of the keep if they are fighting enemy players.
Castle:- This is the most difficult objective to hold and even more difficult to upgrade. At least 2 dolyaks should be escorted at all times to ensure maximum delivery chance. The castle is subject to attacks at an average of once every 5 minutes.
The absolute very first upgrade should be "Double Worker," upon acquiring at least 750/1000 supply inside the castle.
The second upgrade should be "Cannons," upon acquiring at least 500/1100 supply inside the castle. Double Worker will provide a rapid response to the completion of this crucial upgrade.
The next upgrade is not to be queued due to the next upgrade requiring players to build all of the Oils at every gate -- starting with inner gates and working your way to the outer gates. This will require a minimum of 360 supply and is preferred that you use the supply inside of the castle for the inner gate oils, in order to provide rapid response. Outer gate oils is optional to run supply from nearby camps (should have a guild kindly place +5 Supply Capacity buff onto that camp).
The next upgrade will be to "Hire Merchants" due to the pressing need for a supply capacity increase, while providing a central location in Eternal Battlegrounds for players to empty their bags at. This will bring the supply capacity to 1300.
Lastly, begin construction on "Reinforced Walls" upon acquiring at least 500/1300 supply inside the castle. - The second tier begins with "Hire Additional Guards," upon acquiring 1200/1400 supply. This will place Zealots, Cabalists, and Magi at each gate. While placing many more Archers on the walls for additional protection.
The next upgrade will be to "Build Mortars," upon acquiring 1000/1550 supply. This will provide much more protection from long-range placed siege, such as, Trebuchets and Catapults.
The next upgrade will be to "Hire Services," to ensure that Repair and Bank vendors are in a central location of Eternal Battlegrounds, while increasing the supply capacity up to 1850.
The last upgrade of this tier will be to begin construction on "Reinforced Doors," upon acquiring at least 1000/1850 supply inside.
- The first upgrade of this tier will be construction of a "Waypoint," upon acquiring at least 1000/2000 supply inside. This is absolutely crucial because of its central location in Eternal Battlegrounds.
The next upgrade will be to "Raise Guard Level" upon acquiring at least 1700/2200 supply inside the castle. This will make it extremely hard for smaller groups to overtake the castle and claim the iron throne!
The next upgrade chosen is dependent on the amount of players online in Eternal Battlegrounds that are constantly using the castle as a means of transportation and/or protection. If many players are available, then "Fortify Castle" should be acquired upon obtaining at least 1500/2400 supply inside. If not so many players are available, then "Hire Patrols" should be purchased after acquiring at least 1800/2400 supply, to ensure that more ground is covered to ensure protection of the castle.
And... that's that! I hope you all enjoyed this well thought-out guide that I have written and welcome your feedback!
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Post by Remnant Militant on Nov 10, 2013 0:18:57 GMT -5
The method for towers that you have provided would be good for the northern towers of a bl since you only get one camp. However, for the southern towers, you want to get walls/doors reinforced as soon as possible. When you do these upgrades, always have at least one camp doubled up. One doubled up camp and one regular camp and a tower that has 100 supplies takes only one trip to complete for walls. While those upgrades are going, it is best to prep up the tower using the nearest camp supplies. Remember that these towers are subject to breakouts. The more fortified the structure the higher the probability we can get some kind of backup/calvery to save the tower; especially if prepped.
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Post by rikkity on Nov 10, 2013 20:52:35 GMT -5
@drae re: eb camps -- i had no trouble getting double supplies first at camps in the green corner, i noticed the yaks only died before they reached sm if no one was tending them but would always make it to those 2 towers (which frankly at the time i didnt care about putting yaks into sm cuz the reset excitement and flipping hadnt died down yet. i preferred to have our towers impenetrable, meaning that every possible yak needed to bring double supplies).
and drae, i have to completely disagree with your tower upgrade outline. a 150 or 175 max supply tower with just reinforced gates is far more valuable imo than the path you suggest. leaving gates paper until you have 375 max supply is absolutely begging for the enemy to look at it, realize the structure is EXTREMELY vulnerable, and take a dump on your investment. paper gates can easily be downed before the cavalry arrives, even if youre scouting troop movements.
if you want easy to read, here:
get walls and gates, with a worker splashed in at any point where you have enough supply for it. then get everything else (with a focus on waypoint if its a keep), and save fortify for last always everywhere. you cant go wrong doing this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 1:28:33 GMT -5
My guide was focused on primarily maintaining enough supply inside the tower for future attacks while upgrading. If a tower, keep, or castle has 3/4 of its supply inside while the upgrade starts, then the constant dolyak deliveries will cause it to "Ride a High." Thus, saving supply for players to quickly build siege and wipe the enemy players. Three players quickly responding to defend a tower can quickly place an arrow cart or ballista in specific spot to ensure that the Flame Rams are downed, while ensuring that the players will back off long enough for our zerg to arrive to the rescue. Most of the time when Reinforced Walls or Gates are placed under upgrade construction, it'll force the tower to drop to 0 supply if done too early, and it'll force players to have absolutely no means of building siege while they have the nearby camp claimed as their own.
Assuming a single rendezvous drop-off point is present.Reinforced Walls requires 200 supply total to achieve completion. At a rate of 1 dolyak per 1min 30sec, bringing in 35 supply. It then takes 30sec to have the dolyak run back. This ensures that it will complete in approximately 12 minutes. Reinforced Walls at a rate of 1 dolyak per 1min 30sec, bringing in 70 supply. It then takes 30sec to have the dolyak run back. This ensures that it will complete in approximately 6 minutes. Reinforced Gates requires 400 supply total to achieve completion. At a rate of 1 dolyak per 1min 30sec, bringing in 35 supply. It then takes 30sec to have the dolyak run back. This ensures that it will complete in approximately 24 minutes. Reinforced Gates at a rate of 1 dolyak per 1min 30sec, bringing in 70 supply. It then takes 30sec to have the dolyak run back. This ensures that it will complete in approximately 12 minutes. These figures are approximate and only accurate if assuming that there is no keep or castle for a secondary drop-off rendezvous point. If there is, then these figures double.
Assuming a secondary drop-off rendezvous point.Reinforced Walls at a rate of the first dolyak at 1min 30sec, bringing in 35 supply, and every other dolyak at a rate of 3min arrives. This ensures that it will acquire completion in approximately 16 minutes 30 seconds. This timer is when a camp was recently captured at approximately the same time as the nearby tower.Reinforced Walls at a rate of the first dolyak arriving in the first 4min 30sec, bringing in 35 supply, and every other dolyak brings in 70 supply at a rate of 3min. This ensures that Double Supply upgrade has had time to finish upon reacquiring of a nearby camp. It also ensures that it will acquire completion in approximately 13 minutes 30 seconds. Note: Upon reacquiring of a nearby camp, a minimum of 3min is required before the respawn of the dolyaks -- assuming that the dolyaks had been killed the previous takeover. Had the dolyaks not of been killed, then the timer is unpredictable, due to the fact that it relies on the speed of which the previously dolyak took to arrive at its secondary rendezvous point and/or had been killed. Reinforced Walls at a rate of the first dolyak arriving in the first 1min 30sec, bringing in 70 supply ( assuming a tower was captured, after the nearby camp had already received Double Supply), and every other dolyak brings in 70 supply every 3min. This ensures that it will acquire completion in approximately 10 minutes 30 seconds. For Reinforced Gates, take all of these timers and multiply them by two to receive the accurate approximation of how much time it would take to finish the upgrade, assuming Double Worker had already been present (to ensure that the supply is used before the arrival of the next dolyak, as Workers currently work at a rate of 45 seconds for the first worker and 30 seconds for the second worker, per 10 supply used).
There are thousands of variables that come into play which would mean the difference in the approximations given. All approximations given require the following factors to be in play: - We would have ownership of the nearby camp at approximately the same time of queuing the upgrade in place.
- We would have escorted every single dolyak and not a single one would die, in order to achieve these times. If any of them die, then a 3min addition must be added to each timer, given each circumstance that may come into play.
- A second worker must always be present, prior to the initiation of Reinforced Walls or Reinforced Doors upgrade, in order to make these figures be accurate in their approximation.
If a second worker is not present and only a single rendezvous drop-off point is present, then the tower would be receiving the upgrade at an approximate efficiency of 100%, assuming that Double Supply had not been purchased on the nearby camp.
If Double Supply had been purchased and only a single rendezvous drop-off point is present, then a single worker would still be running at 100% efficiency.
If Double Supply had not of been purchased and a secondary rendezvous drop-off point is present, then a single worker would be running at an approximate efficiency of 100%.
If Double Supply had been purchased and a secondary rendezvous drop-off point is present, then a single worker would only be running at an approximate efficiency of 85.7%.
If Double Supply had been purchased and a secondary rendezvous drop-off point is present, then Double Workers would be running at an approximate efficiency of 100%.
For a Tower, the efficiency only is affected upon assuming worst-case scenario event occurring. Thus, it is viable to consider not purchasing a Double Worker, had there only been a single rendezvous drop-off point present and/or Double Supply had not been purchased on the nearby camp. These figures are much less efficient for Keeps and Castles. - These timers also do not count for any mobs (or players) that currently may be presently attacking the dolyak to rendered the dolyak in a 33% slower state (cripple), which will drastically affect the dolyaks rate of arrival.
- These timers also do not calculate for the possibility of players draining supply from the tower -- at any given rate, which would diminish the time for completion.
- These timers also do not calculate for the possibility of a tower coming under siege, a gate or wall being broken down, and a worker (or both) being killed during the take-over attempt (yet, being able to fight back and push them out of the Tower), which would drastically affect these timers.
Assuming Absolute Worse-Case Scenarios Present:- If a mob or player is able to Cripple the dolyak into a 33% slower movement rate, then the efficiency of a single worker (assuming Double Supply active and a secondary rendezvous point) would increase from 85.7% to 100%.
- If a player sped up the dolyak movement rate by 33% per X amount of seconds, then the efficiency of these calculations would drop dramatically.
- If a mob or player is able to successfully kill a dolyak, then a 3 minute timer is added on per dolyak killed. With an minimum of 5 minute timer, plus 3 minutes per dolyak killed, per capturing of a camp by enemy forces (Mercenary's can capture camps without a player being present).
P.S. I'm sorry if this seems like a big load of crap to think about, but that's why I simplified my guide to automatically compensate for all of these figures shown above (and then some). So, trust me when I say, I created the guide to provide the best reasonable efficiency to ensure that a reasonable amount of supply is able to always remain present, while not reducing the efficiency of the workers, while compensating for possible player drains, and while compensating for possible deaths that the workers may incur during the holding of the tower. P.S.S. Mind you, these figures are only calculating for a single factor: supply. Had other factors of been calculated (such as, Defensive Capabilities of a Wall, Gate, Oil, Cannon, or Mortar) then we would be here for quite a while, and the guide would not be created for an even longer time. |
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Post by Remnant Militant on Nov 11, 2013 2:10:33 GMT -5
I think the issue here is one method is in regards to efficiency and the other is in regards to defensive security. There are multiple factors to keep in mind, not only supply. For the sake of simplicity, I will only discuss a BL tower scenario (not EB).
Regular door health: 350k (haven't checked this in a while, but I'll double check it later this week).
Regular wall health: 375k (same as doors).
Assaulting group: 5 man team with 15 supply buff from nearest camp. (75 supplies... potential 150 without guard respawn aka one additional supply run without tagging gate). This means, they can setup either 3 sup rams or 4 regular rams or 5 guild catas/3 regular catas).
Sup ram effectiveness if traited for first 3: 12.4k per hit at 3.2 seconds.
Sup cata effectiveness: 11.8k per hit at 5 seconds. (not including if they are traited with siege might or cata... at full cata and might, you can do roughly 17k per hit).
Worst case ram scenario:
Within the first 30 seconds (no X showing on the tower) and assuming all three players on the rams have ram traits and are superior, they have effectively taken (334800) of health (not including any from skill 2 or dps from the 2 remaining players. That is 95% of the gates health. This means, at best, you have to have everyone WP to the nearest WP (imagine if this WP is our citadel due to no WPs in any of the keeps) and be there in 31 seconds to get there before the gate goes down. At worst, by the time your scout gets there, the gate is already down and then he needs to hold them while the cavalry gets there. (mind you, this is just a 5 man team assault).
*Note*: With 2 sup rams, you have roughly 44 seconds before the gate goes down.
Same type of calculations can be done for cata scenario.
Point is, reinforced doors/walls can help with those crucial seconds for the cavalry to show up and save the day or at least some kind of backup. As mentioned earlier, whenever you do any upgrades, it's best to prep the tower by running supplies from the nearest camp. It's amazing how far a small prep can do instead of having to flash build.
This is the main reason why I personally feel efficiency is better for the norther towers due to one supply camp that runs extremely slow, and defensive security should be used for the southern towers; especially if the closest WP is citadel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 16:01:17 GMT -5
I would agree to your calculations. I am curious how you are aware of the health of a Regular Gate/Wall (and would prefer a link for it). I also noticed a slight hint of yourself having acquired Flame Ram Mastery with one of your characters, due to the fact that you have more accurate figures towards Flame Rams against a Gate. However, to be fair, your accuracy of Flame Rams matters more because even with Reinforced Walls, there will still be a paper gate. However, if there are paper walls, and just ONE PERSON has Catapult Mastery Level 4 (I have Level 5), then with the same figures, it will be 3 times faster for a Paper Wall to go down in comparison to a Paper Gate.
Briar Paper Wall vs. Regular Catapult manned by a user with Level 4 Catapult Mastery:Max Wall Health: 375,000. Regular Catapult Damage per 5 seconds = ~11.3k per 5 seconds = ~2.26k per second. - Assuming a single Regular Catapult having been manned by a user with Level 4 Catapult Mastery, then the wall will go down in approximately 166 seconds (2 minutes 46 seconds).
- Assuming 3 Regular Catapults have been manned by 3 users with Level 4 Catapult Mastery, then the wall will go down in approximately 55 seconds. Given that the first 30 seconds may go unnoticed, then with no nearby Waypoint of Bay, then it will be captured or they will have been at the Lord's room before any form of response is taken.
Now, I am unfortunately unaware of the Health or Defensive Damage Decrease that is taken in to effect for a Reinforced Gate, Reinforced Walls, or Fortified Walls, and as such, I am unable to provide accurate measurements that would prove your theory for the Southern Borderland Towers to primarily aim for Defensive Capabilities, rather than efficient Supply income and management. If someone either took the time to build a single catapult and take down a Reinforced Wall using their measurements based on the exact amount of damage done per hit and the amount of hits done before the wall came down -- with zero repairs being enforced from the inside of the Tower, then we would be able to acquire the Health of Reinforced Walls. However, another comparison would have to be done between the amount of damage that the same person would do against a Paper Wall with the exact same type of Catapult, to find the amount of Damage Reduction that a Reinforced Wall would provide. While the comparison between a Paper Wall, Reinforced Wall, or Fortified Wall can be found much easier for the purpose of Damage Reduction, the Health assessment would be much more complicated and most likely would have opposing forces which would repair the wall; thus, interrupting the assessment. If only Arenanet provided these figures on-queue to ensure the accuracy of the results, then no research assessment would need to be done. However, in terms of Damage Reduction, I am curious enough to try this out on my own, in terms of Paper Wall vs. Reinforced Walls vs. Fortified Walls, and may even do this during this week's match up! However, I would require to attempt this using Regular, Superior, and Guild Catapults, in order to assure myself that there is no extra Penetration gain via a more powerful Catapult. Considering that Superior and Guild Catapults already do more damage than Regular, then I would be inclined to agree that Penetration assist already exists for these more powerful Catapults. |
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Post by rikkity on Nov 11, 2013 16:26:02 GMT -5
i certainly am tl;dr'ing these walls of text now ><
i read your first guide drae but...
rem gets these values by counting. takes like what 45 regular unmighted ram hits to punch through a paper gate? something like that. thats where the 350k gate hp comes from. paper walls sit at 400k hp iirc, and honestly with the longer cd for cata skills a 3 ram mastery ram has about the same doorbusting time as a 4 mastery cata on a paper wall w/ min range. the ram is cheaper in terms of supply. the deciding factor imo should be whether or not there are enemy rams on that gate, because you probably wont be able to kill those without tapping and alerting before youre ready.
the takeaway is that paper gates can be downed by the time swords pop, whether you are watching the structure or not. reinforced gates take a lot more organization and wayyyy more effort to break in a short enough time span to sneak past scouts. thats why i think gates need to be the highest priority on a upgrade schedule.
and plus, you can sit under 2 acs when you have 3 ram mastery. 2 rams will break a paper gate in those circumstances, even if the acs are hitting them the whole time.
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Post by Remnant Militant on Nov 11, 2013 18:54:35 GMT -5
The most accurate way of getting the hp for gates is using an alpha golem. Your range for the remainder will be between, 1.9-2.2k, or if you missed whether it went down on the first punch or second, then it could be between 3.8k-4.4k.
For walls, same concept but with an Omega.
I haven't done this is in a while (since March/April), especially since the league has started which has caused doing these types of analysis harder due to more scouts in enemy territories. I was able to do it once for reinforced gates but I haven't been able to do it for reinforced walls or fortified walls. You'll always have a margin of error when trying to do this (server helpers started dpsing, enemy starts to repair, you lost count due to being attacked, etc).
As for the walls, I think you're right Rik, it was a bit higher than 375k, think it was 385k (definitely not on the 400k) though. All of these values have probably changed with the introduction WxP mastery. But the concept is the same: leaving it paper makes it much easier for the enemy to sneak it.
In regards to damage reduction, I believe its 33% per structure tier type. This would have to be tested. Health increase is unknown to me but I would suspect it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 19:54:00 GMT -5
Remnant, that is certainly the most accurate, but also the most slowest unless you used Catapults/Flame Rams.
Rikk, everything that I am arguing 24/7 in reference to strategic warfare requires that I use calculated decisions to dictate whether or not one situation will justify another; thus, you will never see a short and straight answer to something. You can't just say "Reinforced Gates are better because... they just are!" The user who started this thread wanted a legitimate discussion between weighing priorities for upgrades, and I intend to do just that.
Remnant provides great calculated replies and I would prefer if others would do the same.
As for the Health increase concern, I am 80% sure that Reinforced Walls receive a rough guesstimate of a 20% increase in Health, where as Fortified Walls receives a rough guesstimate of about a 50% Health increase. These figures are pure speculation based on the amount of time that it took to repair a Fortified Wall at Bay (took about 20 minutes from 10% Health, with just myself, using Bay's supplies).
As I said before, Golems are more accurate, but if you want less interruptions while doing this assessment, then I recommend Flame Rams or Catapults (Superior/Guild version) to speed up the process.
However, there's one thing that I've been noticing in particular reference towards Walls. The very, very first hit from a Catapult to a Wall, seems to show absolutely zero damage done. My theory is that there is some form of a protective initiation barrier on Walls that are 100% repaired (not guesstimate 100%, but exactly 100%). Because I know for a fact that the very first hit from a Catapult onto a wall will show zero damage done -- but I do not know why this is or whether damage is actually done.
On top of all of these assessments that we intend to undertake, I think that we should attempt to back them up with article releases from Arenanet or from experienced and well-known Moderators/Players of Guild Wars 2. The wiki patch notes could be a solid reference, but would prefer if linked directly from the forums of Guild Wars 2.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 4:32:25 GMT -5
Btw, I just took down Briar Back Wall with a Paper Wall vs. Superior Catapult with Level 5 Catapult Mastery -- took exactly 26 shots with zero repairs done. That's 451,022 life approximately at a rate of 17,347 damage per shot.
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Post by rikkity on Nov 12, 2013 11:56:30 GMT -5
You can't just say "Reinforced Gates are better because... they just are!" except you can, because they are. they are better than every other upgrade without contest in a tower. so not going for them first is gimping your defense chances. because even having 50-200 supply wont stop a paper gate from going down, and you will have to be able to fight in the lords room to defend. and the circumstances where you can win such a fight are rare/lucky at best. certain circumstances in a keep make either cannons or waypoint more important, but gates are the next upgrade you shoot for once you reach that objective. (for example -- on reset night its a good strategy to go straight for a waypoint in home bl garr just for the added mobility. especially if you have an easy night. you get a great morale boost for having a wp show up an hour early in your other maps. you have a group of people committed to defending against any size enemy force so you can not worry about how quickly the structure is broken into. when you plan to hold hills and leave a scout in it, its a good strategy to get cannons first because theyre more effective at blowing up rams than reinforced gates are at stalling.) gates are not what needs explanation here, its the situations where you *dont* get gates first that need explanation and a very strong case. |
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Post by yip on Nov 15, 2013 12:11:06 GMT -5
defensive siege is better than any upgrade.
one treb and 2 ACs prior to upgrading with 1 person in each of the south BL towers and 1 person in QL and durios (because this week we'll be blue) is enough to scout and hold off any siege long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
that's a grand total of 4 people camping defense. and it's not hard to convince people to do that because the towers I listed are attacked very often and when you're on siege you get ALL the bags if you hold them off until they get wiped by our reinforcements.
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